Hazing and the “New Corps”

“The measure of a man is what he does with power.” – Plato

 

My feet hit those adorable little yellow footprints in January of 2002, and from T-1 all the way up until my EAS in 2006, I heard “New Corps” at least five times a day.  It always amused me to see 19 year old kids and 30 year old men complaining about how the world was going to shit because they couldn’t IT a 17 year old boy barely out of high school for forgetting to shave.  I was issued “old school” woodlands which required heavy starching and ironing in order to make them look sweet.  I was issued black leather boots that needed to be cleaned, buffed, and polished every night and touched up throughout the day.  Most of us took a lot of pride in our uniforms and the hours of maintenance that came with them.  When the spiffy new digital camouflage utilities emerged, nearly every Staff NCO, NCO, and Senior Lance began having meltdown after hilariously embarrassing meltdown, screeching and wailing like meth-addicted banshees about how ri-goddamned-diculous it was that they weren’t allowed to starch or iron them.  And the boots!  YOU CAN’T SPIT SHINE THEM??  WHAT THE FUCK??  MY MARINES WON’T HAVE SHINY FEET??  NOOOOO!!!  All ending with violent fist shaking towards the heavens and a moon-shattering “DAMN YOUS NEW CORPS!! DAMN YOUS ALL TO HELL!!”

 

It, uh…It got intense.

 

Digital utilities and the new boots meant, in reality, less time spent on starching, ironing, and polishing and more effective camouflage.  Marines who were not issued Marpat were so confounded by this change that many simply refused to wear them, until units began officially making them the uniform of the day, to try to preserve their status as “old school.”  Boots were buying old utilities and jungles in attempt to fit in and be “Old Corps.”  It was beautiful. [single tear forms before I force it back in like a man.]

 

Everything that was updated, changed or different was immediately terrible and was blamed on this “New Corps.”

 

Civilians running the Chow halls?  Damn that New Corps!  Drill Instructor gets removed for spraying a recruit in the face with windex?  Damn that New Corps!  Changing the way the Rifle Range is scored?  Damn that New Corps!  Getting rid of 5-tons so Motor T has to learn about 7-tons?  Damn that New Corps!  We have to sit through another Safety Brief/Stand Down?  Damn that New Corps!  Most often it was basically “Troop welfare is better than when I was that rank…FUCKING NEW CORPS!! UUUUGGGGHHHH!!” (with or without violent, childish tantrum-kicking.)

 

Many Marines never open their eyes enough to realize that at one point, this “New Corps” was blamed for making them trade in their trusty M-14 for a POS M-16, a musket with balls for a rifle with cartridges, and a horse for a tank.  Speaking with WWII, Korean War, and Vietnam veterans will provide much insight into this, as they all will tell you about Marines who bitched about the “New Corps” or “Kinder, Gentler Marine Corps” when they served.

 

Point being:  Progress and change in the Corps are viewed as dangerous, unnecessary, and coddling.  When the AAV was originally scheduled to be replaced by the AAAV (aka EFV) nearly every 2141 and 1833 complained about the training that they would need if that happened.  Instead of being excited about receiving a faster, safer, and overall better piece of equipment, they all blamed this new technology (which was never instated) for the decline of their beloved Corps.  Their “logic” was:  “Marines don’t need air-conditioning in a combat vehicle!  Quick-disconnect parts are for bitches!  That 25mm Bushmaster isn’t as cool as my m2 and mk19, I don’t care if it CAN hit a target in 6 foot swells from a longer distance, I don’t need no dang ole’ electronics helping me shoot!  Going 35 knots isn’t much faster than 8, that’s a waste of power!  These vehicles being easier to diagnose, repair, maintain, and operate will lead to my Marines becoming complacent and turning into shit bags!”

 

By far, the most hilariously stupid use of New Corps Blaming was unleashed upon anyone mentioning the hazing policy.  I came in several years after the original order was instated and there were still Marines who claimed to not fully understand it.  It was a fairly simple order;  Incentive Training was for recruits at MCRD’s only, no public humiliation, no physical assaults, no consenting to being hazed or abused, and punishments must make sense.  For example:  If he is late for formation, the Marine stays late that week or has to be in early the next week to write an essay so that he knows what he did wrong and how to fix it, instead of forcing him to PT which would only add to his exhaustion and teach him that he can fuck up all he wants as long as he can keep up with whoever is running him.  If his uniform looks like dusty ass, he should stand several uniform inspections until he has proved that he is competent in that area of Devil Doggyness.  If his room looks like six hobos held an epic fisting orgy overnight, he should lose his weekend to a proper Field Day (Chinese if there is mold or is an extreme case).  If he is a fat body or cannot pass a PFT, extra PT should be used to fix those deficiencies, where an essay or uniform inspection could not.

 

There is often a good amount of debate between Marines as to what type of punishment fits each offense.  A common misconception is that extra PT will solve any problem by teaching Marines that physical pain is the result of making a mistake.  This is incorrect.  It teaches him that he can get away with being a poor quality Marine as long as he can exercise well.  Some argue that it is better to take a Marine out to the tree line and beat some sense into him than to “ruin his career with paperwork.”  This does not teach him to correct his deficiencies, it teaches him that it is acceptable to assault someone when they make the wrong choice, there will be no official repercussion if he does, and that he can be a failure as a Marine but still stay in the Corps because he has a clean record.

 

Some types of hazing are fairly innocent, and like many Marines, I have no problem with those.  Tasking a young devil with finding an eight pound bolt stretcher, some grid squares, blinker fluid, or 50 feet of shore-line is not humiliating, but it does show him that work can be sacrificed in order to play games.  Inside jokes help form lasting bonds, every adult realizes that.  Including the new guy in those inside jokes helps him acclimate to the environment and feel like part of the team, especially when he can include someone in the joke later on down the road.  Pranks that don’t waste time and resources and do not result in someone being injured or humiliated are fine in my opinion, and I doubt many Marines would disagree with me on that.

 

Tradition is often cited as a reason for allowing hazing.  A notable tradition being the NCO Blood Stripe ceremony.  When a Marine is promoted to Corporal, he walks between two rows of senior NCO’s who each punch him in the shoulder to “make the rank stick” and knee him in the thigh, creating a line of bruises that are supposed to mimic the scarlet stripe on NCO and Officer dress blue trousers.  Marines are taught in boot camp that the Corps uses the blood stripe to remember that 90% of all Officers and NCO’s were lost during the Battle of Chapultepec in 1847, and this ceremony is supposed to honor that.  In reality, the losses were much less significant (7 out of 400-450 men) and the Marine Corps borrowed the blood stripe from the Army in 1840.  Freshly promoted Corporals often have trouble walking for at least a day after this pointless, historically inaccurate ceremony, and a few have formed blood clots that have endangered their careers and lives.  If we are going to have traditions, let us at the very least make sure that they don’t make us look like fools.  If you want to congratulate your brother for being promoted, shake his hand like a man.

 

As for as the “tradition” argument; the Corps has never tolerated hazing.  Before the current order was instated it was just called an Article 93 (Cruelty and Maltreatment).  Putting a new name on and bringing attention to an old problem does not make the Corps weaker or softer, it helps address an existing issue so that future Marines can have a better Corps than you did.  Children that were abused are more likely to abuse their own children, and the same goes for Marines.  If we don’t work together and stop making the same mistakes our predecessors made, the Marine Corps will never be the elite organization that we all wanted it to be.

 

tl;dr – You are always boot to someone who thinks you are ruining their Corps.  Don’t be a dick and ruin it for everyone who serves after you.

  • guest1111

    I agree with everything you have just said

  • Older USMC Vet

    Sir B. H. Liddell-Hart once wrote:

    “The only thing harder than getting a new idea into the military mind is to get an old one out.”
    From my own time on active duty in the USMC, I have seen a lot of truth to this quote. If you do spend a lot of time in the Marine Corps, you can easily fall into the trap of becoming too hard headed and set in your ways. There has been a lot of change in the last 3 decades, and if you do not have a flexible, adaptive and constantly learning mindset you run the risk of becoming irrelevant overnight!
    As a Marine who first join in 1992, I’ll never forget in late 2003 ( while at MCAS Miramar) the day when I bought the new desert boots ( the digital cammies weren’t at the PX yet) and wearing them with the old woodland cammies ( an MCO at the time allowed us to do so). That morning I got yelled at by 3 different senior Officers, but as a 1st LT I politely explained to them that I was conforming to uniform policy and wanted to break the boots in. So the first part of your article resonates with my own experience, but with all due respect I think you have over exaggerated the reactions to these changes a little.
    Anybody who does an enlistment with the USMC will end up hearing about “old Corps” vs “new Corps”, and sometimes their is merit to in whatever issue they are applying the argument to- sometimes not. Change can be for the better, or it can be two steps backward.
    I’d say that as a 1990’s Marine:
    -we never felt the need to have overly excessive standowns and briefs about a range of issues- pre PowerPoint days ( change for the worst),
    – we were treated more like adults so we didn’t have to fill out some stupid weekend liberty plan, nor have our vehicles inspected ( a stupid, patronizing idea!)
    -Dont’T Ask Don’t Tell was a good policy that worked ( no I don’t like the idea of openly homosexual people living in barracks!),
    -Women were barred for the Infantry, and it works better that way!!
    — In Okinawa as a LCPL I was trusted to go off base by myself in the evening to eat dinner, return a rented video, and come back to base without having some stupid color liberty card!
    – we could survive by all of us not wearing some glow belt on an early morning PT run as long as key members of a platoon had reflective vests. ( don’t know if this change is better or worse!)
    – dumb, stupid, petty and idiotic rules have always been dumb, stupid, petty and idiotic rules! ( take that storm in a tea cup Umbrellagate as an example)
    On hazing, in the 1990’s I won’t deny there was many incidents of excessive hazing, but I will say that there was an unspoken understanding that if you followed orders, put forth your best effort, and took what you were doing seriously, you weren’t messed with unnecessarily. But with this issue, it does not matter what time your in- you are always going to get some petty tyrant who enjoys being malicious to other Marines.
    Lastly, I’ll comment on one particular small issue that I read about both on this web site and Terminal Lance. – that of senior lance corporals’ and NCOS making their “boots” clean their rooms for field day, or other occasions. This issue sticks out to me because in my enlisted experience from 1992-1996 I never saw that, nor as a boot did I experience that. Just where the hell these “new Corps” NCOS get off on having that ridiculous sense of entitlement and arrogance is beyond me. Clean your own fucking rooms because junior enlisted are not your personal playthings!!

    • There was a bit of satire mixed in with their reactions to illustrate
      how even the smaller changes were viewed with contempt. There may not
      have been howling at the midnight sky, but there was plenty of New Corps
      blah blahing due to the lack of maintenance the digis required. The
      same type of “there goes the Corps” that went around when corframs and
      anodized medals and web belt shiny parts were authorized. The AAAV/EFV
      comments are almost word-for-word, unfortunately. It was as if some of
      the more senior leadership were actually worried about the quality of
      their Marines decreasing due to them having a physically easier job that required
      them to think more than simply busting rust and cleaning/inventorying SL-3 gear. I never
      experienced senior Lances or NCO’s making boots clean their rooms
      either, but I can believe it. I agree with you that most of the time it
      is only the shit birds who get treated like garbage. Looking back now
      though, I realize that a lot of the shit bags I met were really just
      depressed and needed intelligent guidance from their leadership but were
      treated as weaklings and outcasts, further demotivating them and
      decreasing their overall quality as a Marine. My theory on shit birds
      is that most of them can be re-motivated and molded into an awesome
      Marine (again or for the first time) if their peers and leaders take a
      healthy interest in them and push them to succeed. Even the guys that
      are seen as “That One” who quite possibly could not be helped. I think
      that anyone who can make it though boot camp can make it through the
      fleet, some just need much more patience with their guidance and closer
      peer supervision.

      I agree with you about females in the
      infantry. I must admit that a 90 pound female will have a very hard
      time pulling a 6 foot, 200 pound man with 100+ pounds of weapons,
      ammunition, and gear out of a burning HMMWV. Other than combat
      effectiveness, the culture in our Infantry units is not accepting of
      women, and is dangerous for them.

      Out of curiosity, why don’t you approve of gays in the barracks?

      • Older USMC Vet

        I am over 40 years old and have seen the evolution of “political correctness” over the last few decades. In most ways, our society as a whole is not better off for it- the truth always hurts and hiding it with bullshit doesn’t do anything good.
        As a heterosexual man, I find the idea of two men butt fucking each other abhorrent and disgusting! It is unnatural, and does not form the basis of a stable, moral society.
        But on the flip side of this coin, I recognize that gay men have been a part of the human race for over a thousand years. Look at Alexander the Great and what he achieved, so his sexual orientation is his own private affair.
        As a a Marine, if someone does his job, is reliable and has all the traits that the USMC wants, then what they do in private is not really any of my business. If someone said he was gay, I wouldn’t bash them, but ask them to keep a polite and respectful distance ( I yelled and screamed at one gay man for getting to close to me years ago!).
        In a barracks or communal living setting, NO WAY! The quarters are just too close, and I am not personally comfortable with it. Hell, but having to take showers with at least 30 other men in boot camp and OCS was not comfortable either!!
        So Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was a sensible policy that accommodated faggots to some extent, though I recognize kicking a good gay service member out isn’t the best course of action.
        Bottom line for me: if your gay, keep it to yourself, don’t mention it to me, find a gay lover and go do the business in a hotel room out in town! Am I homophobic? Is there some hypocrisy to this? Yes, but that what I think and am beyond caring if this offends some people.
        And no- I don’t support gay marriage, the repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, and faggots adopting children! There it is.

        • bootasfuck

          At least you can state your views on that particular issue with respect

        • Thank you, I like to hear honest opinions on this. I think DADT was set up for slowly introducing full integration, or at
          least the idea. Kind of like writing a law around a
          common unwritten rule people had already been following for years. They
          seem to be the current/next civil rights movement type of group. Denying gays
          their service would be wrong, but I do oppose openly gay individuals serving in
          Infantry units for one of the reasons I am against females being
          grunts: for their own protection. They may be able to pull more than their weight but will not be respected or accepted for quite some time. I don’t think the
          current culture would support it. Separate barracks or granting BAH could eliminate many peoples’ worries, but political action groups of some sort would undoubtedly step in and claim “separate but equal” is too close to our old segregation laws while others claim giving them special treatment would make them even more outcast. Its a messy subject.

          • R.E.M.F.

            Guys,

            I thing the homosexuals have really fucked up with their short-sighted push to be accepted into the military.

            Why?

            THEY HAD AN OUT! When homosexuals were forbidden from the military, well naturally there is not way they could die in combat!

            [The remainder of this comment has been removed by moderators]

          • hooyut

            Haha good point. Although marriage is one man and one woman, no matter what the “lawful” wording is. Gays get civil union.

            Funny how for the thousands of years since the beginning of mankind homosexuality was as perverse as pedophilia and other perverse sexually deviant ideas, now its suddenly ok? Yeah, right…

            They can do them, I’ll do me, but they’ll never get my respect, nor will I support their way of life. By evolution it’s wrong, by logic it’s wrong, by nature it’s wrong, by the Bible it’s wrong.

          • Knob_Gaudy

            Hooyut, ancient greece was a pedophilic homo culture. just saying

          • NINJA_PUNCH

            Genetic traits (even recessive ones) are notoriously difficult to be “weeded out” of a species so, by evolution, it may just be a fact of nature. For example, blonde hair is recessive to brown hair in humans. Yet after some 200,000 years of human existence there are still blonde haired people all over the place.

            Consider: For thousands of years (at least in some cultures) homosexuality has been punishable by death (or other similarly severe punishment). If you were gay in such a culture, what do you think your only logical response to such a culture would be? The obvious answer: Pretend to be straight, get married, have kids (passing on your genetic material in the process).

            I hypothesize (and I confess that I have neither done any stuy nor read any study to support this) that it may be the case that the fervor of the Abrahamic religions in exterminating gay people (at least in ages past), which drove gay people to feign being straight and have children, may be at least partially responsible for why there are so many gay people in the world today. If I’m even partially correct, that would be a terrific bit of irony.

            That said, by logic, two consenting adults performing an activity that they both enjoy (regardless of what the activity may be) should never be compared to someone who abuses a child. Pedophilia and homosexuality should never be placed in the same category.

            Safety and Peace

            [Edit: Sorry if I come off a bit strong, but my girlfriend is “openly” bisexual and has been for as long as she can remember. So I tend to take it a bit personally when people start saying that not being straight is out and out wrong.]

          • hooyut

            Well you and I are going to have two vastly different views. From all experience I have had around homosexuals it looks black and white that it is a choice. If someone believes something enough it can become truth.

            On top of that I believe that part of what causes homosexuality is a demon or evil spirit. God clearly states that when men and women sleep with the same they will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven. That does not mean slaughter them, that is just a warning. Organized religion turns it from a warning to a genocide.

            I believe in the Bible, God, and Jesus and what Jesus did and taught. I treat them just as I would any straight person I didn’t know, but every time I am in the general vicinity with a homosexual, I know to stay away because I can already feel a dark air present.

          • R.E.M.F.

            Hi Ninja,

            You make some very good points.

            Did you ever think about the “Christian” homosexuals? THAT makes no sense at all!

            Why in the world would a person want to be a member of a religion that calls him (or her) an abomination?

            That said, let’s know this. We all have our own opinion about homosexuals in general. BUT – these people should not be attacked if, like you say, it is consenting activity between two adults.

            I love this web site. There are some really intelligent people here who can talk about anything in a logical and civil manner. I know sometimes I use some bad language. I am dealing with DIAGNOSED PTSD and anger problems. Sorry if I go off the rails sometimes, everyone.

          • NINJA_PUNCH

            We realize that this is a site aimed at marines, and asking marines to never swear would be utterly futile. Really as long as you contribute something to the discussion, we don’t care if you have to swear to do it.

            If you don’t mind my asking, are you in some kind of counseling program for your PTSD and anger issues? I only ask because I was in counseling for most of my last year in the corps, and then again through the VA when I got out, and I found it very useful.

          • R.E.M.F.

            Yes. I go to what I affectionately call the “NUT HOUSE” which is a VA psychologist once a week. I am dealing with past events and 40 years of accumulated anger and hate.

            Dealing with this anger is one of the most difficult things I have ever attempted in my life. I actually have to carry an “ANGER LOG” with me. In it, I log every event that drives me to anger. I have to log all the details and how I handled it.

            At first I told the shrink: “You want me to carry this notebook all day? Are you kidding me?” I found out it does help.

            It also has shown me just how off the rails I have been for a long, long time. This shit has been ruining my life for decades.

            I’m working on it, and I know it will take a long time. Quite frankly, I am sick of feeling constant anxiety. I am sick of the constant pain in my chest, which has been investigated and proven to be psychological. My heart is in good shape. I am sick of the burning hate running wild in my being.

            It’s got to stop. I’m working on it. I hope I can get a handle on this once and for all before I, or someone else, gets seriously hurt.

          • NINJA_PUNCH

            Good luck, man. Really. I’m sure I can’t tell you anything that your therapist hasn’t already told you, but I’m definitely pulling for you.

          • R.E.M.F.

            Thanks, man. I really appreciate the support. I need all the luck I can get, too!

          • bootasfuck

            I understand mate. This is a fairly safe place to vent and have good mature debates. Granted I might not agree with everything you say, and some of the things you say may rub us the wrong way, it’s all about respect mate. Respect us, we respect you, we agree to disagree, but at the end of the day we all have the same goal.

            I do like how some of your comments get me thinking though and inspire good, insightful conversation.

          • FailedToAdapt

            Hey @REMF, can I get your email? I have some questions to ask you that are not relevant to this site. I guess the best way, if you are up for it, is to PM me.

            Thank you.

          • bootasfuck

            I understand that’s your opinion, and I’m gonna respect that. Just indulge me for a minute though because I’m actually trying to understand you and your way thinking. When you say how wrong it is, are you actually referring to being gay in it of itself, or the act of sodomy? Because there are a lot of straight men who enjoy oral and anal sex with their women.

          • hooyut

            I am referring to the act of homosexuality. Two men having sex with one another. Two women having sex with one another.
            Is it hot when two women get it on? Yes. Is it right? No. Do I try to watch it? No.

            The best way I ever had sin described to me (if you are a believer) is not an act itself, but that one does not believe God will hold them accountable. For instance, a homosexual thinks God is lying when He stated they will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

            I had a to the core evolutionist tell me that homosexuality makes no sense. The entire purpose of evolution is to reproduce, if the universe had gone the path of evolution then homosexuality would have died off long ago because it had no purpose, even single cell organisms wouldn’t have been able to use a trait like that.

            In the Bible it is wrong and it states that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah chose to do it. I’m not sure what causes it, but because God does not approve of it I can only guess as to why people choose to be that way.

            To me it’s a choice because there is no explanation otherwise- with God or without.

          • bootasfuck

            I’m not exactly what you’d call a true believer, but your whole point on evolution/homosexuality does make sense. Thank you for explaining your views to me.

          • bootasfuck

            Well it does sound like you’re bashing homosexuals just with some of the…I’m gonna say “direct language” you use. In this country a man is entitled to do what makes him happy so long as it’s within the realm of the law. I have no problem with homosexuals so long as they aren’t trying to do it with me.

            However, I do agree that too many minorities (or at least minority organizations) push these issues too hard. Everybody talks about the suffering these people go through and I am not saying they haven’t suffered and I don’t wanna pass judgement something I know nothing about. I really don’t have a huge opinion on the “marriage” vs “civil union” thing.

            If you think about it, you should want there to be more gays in this world. See, the more gay men there are in this world, the more women that are available to us (hint, hint, wink, wink)

  • Fuck

    I don’t believe there is any room for hazing, blanket parties, or code reds, whatever the fuck you want to call it.

    However, ask someone who has been in both the U.S.M.C. and the French Foreign Legion. They will tell you that recruit training and discipline in the Legion makes the Marine Corps look like “Pee Wee’s Playhouse.”

    I was in the SUCK for one enlistment and got the hell out. Another Marine wanted “the real thing” and went to southern France and joined the Legion.

    What happens in the Legion? Well, they teach you French in there. If you aren’t learning on schedule, they will beat the living shit out of you, then forcibly strip you to your underwear and throw you in a stone cell for 8 days. You’ll be on bread and water. You’ll spend your days with what is called “sport.” That’s where you break big boulders into little rocks, do the “Marche de Canard,” which is the duck walk until you fucking pass out.

    Really fuck up and you’ll be buried alive. They will throw a shovel at you, and force you to dig a hole. Then you’re thrown in it and BURIED ALIVE with your head just above the ground. You might be there 1 hour, or all day. If it’s hot, you burn. If it’s cold, you freeze. They don’t give a fuck.

    How do they get away with it? When you joing the F.F.L. you surrender your Passport. It’s an anonymous thing… no one knows you’re there. There is no accountability. If you die in training they bury you.

    In the Legion, there is none of the “Yes Sir” bullshit. That doesn’t
    build discipline. What does, to their belief, are things like severe sleep deprivation and physical standards that would kill most men. Most recruits will sleep maybe 15 hours a week. (REPEAT – 15 hours per WEEK.)

    Their attitude is “We did NOT come looking for you, you came to us!” That much is true.

    You can quit Legion recruit training! Yes, “ring the bell” and you can quit. They’ll give you your civilian clothes back, your passport and your personal belongings and you’ll be put outside the big gate down there in Marseille. They only want the crazy bastards that will put up with their unbelievable harassment.

    The Corporal Chefs and Sergeant Chefs are wild animals. They would beat the fuck out of most Marines, no problem. You join the Legion, you WILL see combat and you will KILL. Also, everyone in the Legion jumps from planes. EVERYONE.

    They have a website, in French. Check it out, but don’t let it fool you. It is BRUTAL.

    FACT – Out of every 5,000 applicants to the F.F.L., only 49 (that’s FORTY NINE) actually make it. In the Marine Corps, it’s almost 100%. Anybody can make it. If you can stand and “catch a bullet” you are prime Marine Corps material.

    Man, I hate the FUCKING SUCK. It’s been 40 fucking years since I been in, and I still HATE those mother-fuckers. When I think about it, I still get very, very angry. Those bastards have scarred me for life. I wish U.S.M.C. would be disbanded and folded into the Army. That would fix them.

    50,000 dead in the ‘Nam and now they’re a trading partner of the U.S. WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT TELL YOU, all you “gung-ho” MOTHER-FUCKERS?!

    • hooyut

      Well I don’t know anything about the French foreign legion but that is a retarded way to live and train.

      • usmc_to_usaf

        I’m trying to figure out who would ever join that military? It sounds more like a fate worse than prison for the highest criminals. “you can die in training”? Shit, I’d rather be a pansy if this is what they considered making a man.

        • hooyut

          I agree, being in conditions like that only make the people involved think they have become men though. They just appear as a bunch of savage thugs to me. I can go apeshit and beat someone to death but I’m mature enough to not do so. (unless it is self defense of course)

          • usmc_to_usaf

            and as your typical motard would say “just suck it up and embrace the suck you pussy this is why you can’t handle in combat” yet none of them can explain how enduring shit like that can make you into a better person. I daresay it makes you more into an idiot, or as you put it- a savage thug.

          • hooyut

            The criminal governments of the world don’t need good men, they need iron fists willing to slaughter anyone who can stand in their tyrannical way. Luckily they have protectors like us who will take the blows of the iron fists and hit back.

          • bootasfuck

            Your typical motard will say “don’t be a pussy”, and then you say “Well, why don’t you do that?”, and they’ll go “”, while still claiming they could kick your ass.

        • R.E.M.F.

          usmc-to-usaf,

          The Legion had been a a haven for criminals running away from prosecution in their home countries, from the very beginning of the organization in 1832. The F.F.L. is NOT open to Frenchmen, only foreigners.

          If you make it through your 5 year enlistment, you are given FRENCH CITIZENSHIP and a FRENCH PASSPORT. You even get a new identity so the police in your home country can’t find you.

          This is VERY ATTRACTIVE to criminals who want a new start. That is why they put up with all that shit.

          • usmc_to_usaf

            That makes much more sense, thanks for telling me. I thought this was a voluntary military program to all citizens.

    • madmike

      I never trained with the Legion but I did train with the French Marines and the way their non rates were treated was criminal. They were beat and attacked constantly by their superiors. But what isn’t made public is you have almost open warfare between the 2 groups. Officers and enlisted sleep apart from each other since the officers and NCO’s are afraid their own men will kill them. They carried loaded pistols at all times because they feared their own enlisted men so much. You constantly had the 2 sides squaring off with each other.

      • hooyut

        That’s the way it should be, just because they are in command doesn’t make them taskmasters or slave traders. A fear of those who you command is healthy for an establishment, that fear no longer exists in the US, that’s why it has become this tyrannical empire waging a war of terror across the planet.

  • usmc_to_usaf

    “And the boots! YOU CAN’T SPIT SHINE THEM?? WHAT THE FUCK?? MY MARINES WON’T HAVE SHINY FEET?? NOOOOO!!! All ending with violent fist shaking towards the heavens and a moon-shattering “DAMN YOUS NEW CORPS!! DAMN YOUS ALL TO HELL!!””
    Is this how some SNCOs really acted? This is too funny.

    • There may not have been screaming towards the midnight heavens, but some were genuinely concerned that less uniform maintenance would cause a decline in the quality of all Marines and were very vocal about it. It was hell on uniformity, and I think that had something to do with it. The first few Monday morning inspections for Marines who were issued digis were awesome – none of our NCO’s had a clue on what to hit them on.

      • usmc_to_usaf

        Seriously, I can’t stand NCOs that are like that. Just looking for reasons to ding people on their uniforms, or looking for a reason to chew them out.

  • Amanda

    I’m not really sure why so many people link the idea of not tolerating hazing as being somehow ‘wimpy’ or a sign of weakness or not wanting to belong/assimilate. I find it so confusing that after excellent service members come forward with issues, they can be discredited this quickly with so many years of service for simply speaking out about something they disagree with. If you have experienced hazing and tolerated it, good for you. But you are not every single person on earth, do you expect everyone else to live exactly like you do, opinions and all? We should care more about the suicide rate of veterans rather than whether or not we think hazing is “cool” or whatever. People that roll their eyes at these things should be ashamed. http://www.trenchlines.org/why-we-should-care-about-hazing/

  • Richard Santos

    Actually, for the majority of the world’s written history, homosexuality was widely accepted. I’d give you the details along with the references, but you seem to have a sub-90 IQ and I encourage you to exercise your brain a little by researching it yourself. Respectfully, of course.

    • hooyut

      You seem to misunderstand reality and considering the way you wrote your post, I am understanding your ignorance on the issue. The vocal minority that comprises homosexuals in a nation does not count as being “widely accepted”. Anyone not raised to accept them or be one will understand they are not right.

      Like I said, the belief in the theory of evolution says they are wrong, logically it is wrong, naturally it is wrong, and the Bible says it is wrong. Tolerance of something does not make it right. Don’t reply at this point, this discussion has been long finished and you really look foolish.

      If you can’t even address the reasons it is wrong that I listed in this paragraph (because you know them to be true) and the post before you know you have already lost.

      • Stillhasfaith

        Being gay has nothing to do with procreating, evolving, or following the words of men who claim to have heard the voice of their deity over 1000 years ago who were basically living under what we now know as Sharia Law. It is not a choice, so it cannot be “right” or “wrong.” As for “anyone not raised to accept them or be one of them” let me stop you right there: Children do not care who a person loves, they are taught by adults how and who to hate and fear, and there is nothing one can do to force a child to become a homosexual, the same way there is nothing one can do to a lesbian that will force her to love dicks.

        Evolution has played a part, actually. The genes that hold homosexual traits are passed from one generation to the next and have always been around. If it were truly wrong, it would have been bred out of our DNA entirely. One could say that it is wrong “naturally,” but they would be wrong. Homosexual acts are VERY often perpetrated by almost every mammal on this planet. You have mentioned the Bible several times, but you should put that book down on a table and open it for a good read sometime. Pay close attention to what that Jesus guy (the son of and final word for your God) had to say, it might open your heart and mind a little. I’m pretty sure he was the guy that preached a lot about acceptance and love being much greater than rejection and hatred. Weird, he even preached about loving everyone despite their differences and imperfections.

        Look, we all signed a contract and took an oath to defend the population against bad guys and what not. We all had a noble cause at one point, or one we at least thought of as such. There is not one solid reason for keeping openly gay men and women from being themselves: It is all due to fear. Young men are so pretentious they think that every gay man wants a piece of their ass when it is often the exact opposite. The guys I was in with that were “on the DL” (down-low) didn’t even like military types. You wouldn’t want to chase around a bunch of ugly chicks that you worked and lived around, would you? I can guarantee you served with several gays while you were in and never realized it because they endured DADT like I had to; silently feeling like you have to hide who you are because you are in constant fear of the insane bullshit these violent bigots would bring into your life if they found out you don’t like to plug the same holes they do (although many will swear that anal is simply the best…but that’s not gay, though, right bro? Because it’s a woman’s ass, right?)

        I figured out that I was bisexual during my first year in the Corps. Should I have came forward to my command, turned myself in and received a general discharge that would negate my MGIB and disability benefits? No, I’m an adult who realizes that the gender of the person I love has NOTHING to do with my ability to be a productive member of society. My sexual preference didn’t hinder my performance; I still taught English to nationals, I still built playgrounds, I still worked my ass off every day and continued to do so through school after my EAS and in the workforce now. All that and without ever raping an unsuspecting Devil Dog in the shower or forcing a blowjob out of a boot, which seems to be one of the biggest fears most ignorant bigots have.

        Keep in mind that 50 years ago people said the exact same thing about mix-raced marriages and children; that it just doesn’t make sense. Those people were racists. Doing that very same thing to another group doesn’t make it any less wrong. Don’t be a homophobe, it really is nothing to be afraid of. Homosexuals will not cause the downfall of human civilization, but bigotry, hate, and war will.

        Young man, I hope that someday you stop drinking the Kool-Aid and form your own opinions based in reality instead of what you heard someone preach from a pulpit.

        • hooyut

          These types of speeches in the vain attempt to rationalize something that has no purpose for existence in this world are very entertaining.

          To start I love the blasphemy of twisting Jesus’ words to your own means. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, I can treat and do treat homosexuals as I would any heterosexual. Would I protect them if they were in harms way? Yes. Do I approve of them shoving their way of life down our throats and forcing everyone to abide by what they think or facing lawsuits if they dont? No.

          (Examples being the lawsuits in Oregon, New Mexico, California, and just recently Ireland where wedding cake bakers were not going to violate their beliefs for the homosexuals and were promptly sued over it – because now a homosexual’s feelings are more important than religious freedom or the rights of store owners.)

          I do not condemn gays, I don’t need too, I can only explain that it is a perversion of nature, evolution, and religion. God already said what is going to happen to those who practice the act!

          Let’s say you believe in the theory of evolution, I had an avid evolutionist teacher in high school tell us that the entire purpose of evolution is to reproduce and spread genes for genetic diversity.

          He told us that homosexuality cannot fit into evolution, because homosexuals cannot reproduce, so for those who believe in evolution homosexuality has to be a mental or willful malfunction. Even if he did not tell us this, it makes sense for that belief system.

          Your false opinion that animals in nature are homosexual is just confusion. Either hormones or just not being able to tell what gender the other animal is are the problems.

          One faulty “support” of homosexuality in nature was some beetles that seemed to have homosexual relations. If you placed 10 beetles together, 5 males and 5 females, could you with your higher thinking ability pick one from the other? No. It’s not willful, its an accident.

          All the Darwin drawings are just drawings, none of them are based on actual visual evidence.

          To believe in evolution you must think that homosexuality is a choice or a mental disorder. To believe in God you must understand that it’s a willful choice. To understand nature and logic, placing semen in an anus serves what purpose? None. Rubbing two vaginas together provides what purpose other than pleasure? None.

          These are not opinions, they are facts. Once again, I am not condemning them, they can dig their own graves by refusing to believe God will do as He said.

          One interesting new thing I read about recently was a similarity in talking patterns between homosexuals and possessed individuals. (like exorcisms) I am not too familiar with it, but it sounds interesting and even logical given the violence many homosexual advocates perpetrate against peaceful protesters, it has some basis.

          I don’t drink kool-aid, I haven’t for some time now. It seems you should try to go without some for a while yourself.

          Attacked by Tolerance:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTgpKoeekTU

          • S.

            Sorry, but this kind of bullshit is not tolerated here.

          • fieldradiohater

            oops, I didnt mean to vote…Im staying out of this convo. Hooyut you seem to be a cool understanding guy,BUT im out of this man. i clicked the video and voted up by accident. ALTHOUGH I do see your point and Stillhasfaith point… like a draw dude, but im out of this one.

    • S.

      THIS IS THE BEST THING I READ ALL YEAR!

  • JD1775

    “A common misconception is that extra PT will solve any problem by teaching Marines that physical pain is the result of making a mistake. This is incorrect. It teaches him that he can get away with being a poor quality Marine as long as he can exercise well.”
    Why then do we haze recruits with incentive PT?

  • jazj70

    A very well-written article with good points.

  • Al Schwartz

    “hazing” or policing our own kept discipline and mentally strengthened Marines. Now the training is far less intense, the Marines suffer from PTSD and other issues because they weren’t properly trained.

    • Josh

      More Marines suffer from PTSD because they were not hazed? You should bust out a recording device and record yourself saying that out loud and play it back.

      • Al Schwartz

        I did, still rings true

        • freeatlastfreeatlast

          I’m sure it has nothing to do with fighting nearly two decades of continuous war or the formal recognition of PTSD and TBI as valid issues to be diagnosed. More Marines are diagnosed with PTSD because they aren’t IT’d by their SNCOs in the fleet.

          It’s not as if the change actually did that much. The loophole is that you can do whatever you want to your guys as long as they’re all doing it together. Death runs in boots and utes in full kit every morning, strapping scuz brushes to knees and hands and washing the barracks walls with bleach, taking shifts so you get a full nights sleep but your guys only get a few hours every night, low crawl police calls, whatever tickles your fancy you bad ass you.

          I’m sure it makes great Marines, just don’t think about it too hard. Meanwhile, the turnover rate for first time enlistees is around 80%, it must mean that the good Marines are the only ones that stick around. Again, just don’t think about it too hard. If some of those guys are saying that there’s a better way of doing things and are offering advice, they’re whiny bitches and can be ignored out of hand. Because you’re a bad ass, just don’t think, thinking is hard.

          http://www.newslinq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/adaptive-images.jpg

    • sdfer345@gmail.com

      Having had some longevity with the Corps, I lost count of the amount of times I heard the excuse “preparing Marines for combat” to justify stupid, childish and absurd behavior, plus justify NCOS harassing other Marines for their own personal power trips!
      http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/crime/2015/05/11/marine-convicted-of-hazing-has-rank-reduced/27128337/

      Using some goddam COMMON SENSE and INTELLIGENCE ( sometimes a rare thing with Marines) making Marines run long distances with heavy equipment is definitely preparing them combat, as long as you have the appropriate safety measures in place.
      Forcing them to cut lawns with scissors is just plain STUPID and UNNECESSARY. Making them strip down furniture for field days is just absurd, and has nothing to do with engaging in a war!
      Forcing your Marines to crawl through a mud soaked O course at 2am while simulated bombs and rifles are going off is preparing them for combat. Making them scrub the barracks with toothbrushes till 2am is just a waste of time!
      Having served in an Infantry unit, I can say that the Marine Corps could never afford to properly prepare all its ground element for the real thing. They can’t afford to send every grunt to SERE school for example!!
      Marines get PTSD from seeing the horrible consequences of weapons and warfare in action. Watching a kid run down the road with her skin on fire because a warmongering prick decided to call in a napalm strike on her village- those are things that can haunt people for the rest of their lives!
      The only common ground I’ll find here is the fact that if you try and force politically correct agendas down a warfighting organizations throat ( hours of boring sexual assault, women’s rights/demands, faggot rights classes etc) then you can’t expect them to adapt well to the horrors of a battlefield.
      But with hazing- like most other issues involving the application of judgement, fairness and common sense, Marines can never be fully trusted to do the right thing.

      • Al Schwartz

        I guess you don’t understand policing our own.

        • sdfer

          I guess you are a coward who can’t stand up for himself.
          I guess you enjoy having someone abuse you all day.
          I guess you are too stupid to think for yourself.
          Definitely sounds like you are a US Marine.

          • Al Schwartz

            you can imagine anything you want, you’d still be wrong.

          • Billiam201

            Sounds like he’s exactly right.

            The “I’m automatically right, cuz I’m a maween, and everybody else is wrong, cuz they’re not” is fairly distinct.

            You have been well brainwashed. I’ll make sure to tell the commandant that your drill instructor did a good job.

            Run along now. I’m sure you have a sergeant to be kissing up to. Bring him a bottle of Boone’s Farm, and a pack of Marlboro reds. If you don’t kiss up properly, you won’t get promoted.

          • Al Schwartz

            yup, like I said-imagine anything you want. you’re still wrong

          • Billiam201

            Of course I am, because Johnny Jarhead said so.

            Are you aware that the inability to process information is often a symptom of learning disorders?

            I think I can see why you love the Maweens so much. You are surrounded by people who think just like you. They even give you a helmet so you don’t hurt yourself.

            Glad you found a home.

          • oldr

            Billiam201 and freeatlastfreeatlast,
            I commend the fact that you have written the same thing over and over again on this website, but it won’t have any effect on people like Al Schwartz. He’s just trying to push your buttons.
            You two have logical and solid points, but the bottom line is that there will always be stupid former Marines who just refuse to see anything in a different way.
            At least this website puts it out in the open.

          • Al Schwartz

            again, still wrong. but it’s your imagination. I guess there’s no stopping your delusions

          • Billiam201

            Last I looked I wasn’t the one convinced that the maweens are anything but an obsolete organization, diluted beyond the point of effectiveness.

            They have been combat effective in half a century, but you keep believing that, skippy.

            I hope it helps you sleep at night.

          • sdfer

            I don’t really give a f*ck what your status is- if you are active duty- go to Iraq and get your head blown off.
            If your out- you can pretend the Corps gives a rat ass about you ( like some battered woman who delusionally believes their husbands love them, while they beat the crap out of them).
            Any kid with a brain can read this web site and not join. and USMC leadership will continue to be f**ked up since all the stupid people reenlist.

          • Al Schwartz

            like I said, you’re still wrong. just because you can’t do the minimum to be a Marine you whine and cry that it’s not fair. I guess safe areas are available for you

          • Billiam201

            Hmmm. Still under the impression that a service with a 90% boot camp graduation rate is anything even resembling “elite”.

            I truly feel sorry for you, chap.

          • Al Schwartz

            still under the impression that world wide recognition of the Marine Corps as an elite fighting force? I guess not for long if you crybabies keep whining about hurt feelings.

          • sdfer

            Hey Shit for Brains: “world wide recognition of the Marine Corps as an elite fighting force”
            Get out a little bit more often.

          • freeatlastfreeatlast

            Have you noticed that there’s no IhatetheSEALs.com? If this site manages to crack the guilded facade that the Marine Corps has put up in front of its incompetency and bureaucratic negligence, then all the better. Hopefully then it would light a fire under the asses of a key number of overpaid and over-awarded knuckleheads with shiny collars to make meaningful changes for a change.

            Imagine such a Utopian future as a Marine Corps that didn’t intentionally plan to lose 80% of its manpower in their first go-around because they were so sick of being mistreated on a minutely basis by self-absorbed alcoholic scumbags that re-upped for the free food and power trips. My god, is such a thing even possible?

            As a side note, could you stop with the “safe space” stuff? I’ve been in College for a few years and I’ve never seen anything like that. This generation is the first in America’s history to fight the longest wars in its history voluntarily. The great recession hit right when we hit the job market, and many of us were saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt. The housing bubble burst at the same time, which actually allowed me to buy my house. So some Social Justice dipshits are screaming about their hurt feelings on some College campus somewhere, it’s not the whole generation.

          • Al Schwartz

            oh no, make excuses for your failure. I guess you’ll always be whining about something.

          • freeatlastfreeatlast

            I’m getting paid to double major in STEM fields at one of the top 20 Universities in the US for free. I bought my car with cash from Afghan, and paid my house off five months after I got out of the Marines. I don’t know how you interpreted my post as whining about my failures, but judging from your other posts, I take it that you don’t like to think too hard before you respond.

            How did you turn 21 Al Schwartz? I was on post on my COP in Afghan during a sandstorm. Where did you turn 19, 20, and 22? I was in Oki. But since I was born between the years of 1980 and 2000, I obsess over selfies and whine about my problems in my safe spaces. I don’t know when you were born, but I take it to have been after 2000 from the way you write and comprehend sentence structure.

          • Billiam201

            The “world wide impression” seems to be confined to American ex-marines, but I guess that doesn’t matter.

            That wasn’t even true in the Pacific, a war that the marines claim they “won” 70 years later, when the army did all the heavy lifting.

            The most important amphibious operation of the last century?

            Sorry, pal.

            The army made the marines obsolete as a fighting force on June 6th, 1944. The army sprung the marines from Chosin, at the cost of 10,000 of their own lives, and the “honorable” marines left them to die in the snow, as “Chesty” couldn’t be bothered with anything but escaping.

            The marines couldn’t even make a rapid advance across open ground in Iraq. Army beat them out there, too.

            So, shout away, little boy. You’re starting to resemble the 5-year-old boy, standing at the top of the slide screaming “watch me, daddy!” At the top of his lungs, before diving down the little plastic tube face-first because you aren’t getting what you consider to be enough attention.

          • Al Schwartz

            yawn. I’m trying to remember when the last time any country asked for the “army” to make a show of force. I guess your mom let you back on line again.

          • freeatlastfreeatlast
          • sdfer

            You can conjecture all you want, Shit for Brains, and you are WRONG!

            With Shit for Brains, there’s always a Marine Corps base that is available to you

          • Al Schwartz

            oh no, you called me shit for brains. I guess I need a safe space to cry about my hurt feelings. err nope, that’d be you

          • sdfer

            Shit for Brains, you really do have shit for brains if that’s your best comeback.
            Actually, I am quite comfortable living in my ‘sanity’ space- ie a thousand plus miles away from a Marine Corps Base, because your intelligence grows the more distance you have from where Jarheads congregate!
            So good ol Al ‘Shit for Brains’ Schwartz- what do you have to say to that?
            Imagine all you want- you will always be WRONG!

        • Billiam201

          “Policing your own” huh?

          Sounds like a worn out line from an organization incapable of actually leading it’s men, so it relies on the mob to police itself out of fear.

          While you’re justifying this Neanderthal behavior, perhaps you can explain to me how making the new guy crawl through a sewer grate is in any way “policing” anything. It is cruelty for the sake of your own amusement.

          Then again, by accepting and actively encouraging:
          1) Ineptitude
          2) Weak leadership
          3) Criminal behavior, as well as
          4) Coverups
          5) Mission failure, as long as all the boxes are checked.
          6) Systematic evasion of responsibility

          All the while discouraging, and in some cases actively punishing, anything resembling moral or ethical behavior because it “rocks the boat” and “might make the unit look bad” they set themselves up for it.

          So sure.

          “Police your own”, whatever the fuck that means.

          • Al Schwartz

            you’d have to be in the Marine Corps to grasp it

          • Billiam201

            Ahhhhh. I see what you did there.

            That’s very clever of you.

            Allow me to explain what you did wrong.

            You assumed, that because I am not brainwashed, I must not be, nor ever have been a marine.

            Unfortunately for you (and stay with me here) I was.

            5 long and torturous years.

            1826 days, every one of them an exercise in mental anguish, as I struggled to make sense of how “field day wins wars”.

            It was never satisfactorily explained how this was possible. What possible correlation could there be between a SSgt. disassembling small appliances to look for dust inside a coffeemaker, and combat performance? Again, never explained. The fact remains that marine NCOs seem to often suffer from a nasty case of tinydickitis. If they’re not making someone else miserable for the fun of it, they just don’t feel like they’re accomplishing anything.

            Also never explained was how hazing improves anything. If a guy screws up, deal with him. There’s no need to punish 27 people because it’s the only way you feel like a man. It doesn’t make the people being unduly punished fix the issue. It just shows that you are weak, and you know it.

            They have managed to convince themselves that this is “leadership”, but that only reveals that they have no idea what that word means.

            So nice try, Al.

            Give it another go. I’m sure you’ll come up with something eventually.

          • Al Schwartz

            wow you can’t even keep a coffee maker clean? I guess you get your feeling hurt badly

          • Billiam201

            Wow. This would be funny if it weren’t so pathetic.

    • madmike1968

      How do you know the training is far less intense? What are your qualifications to make that determination? Did you even serve? I for one was never hazed to make me a better marine…I was hazed because it’s what bullies do when they wear a uniform. It stopped when I fought back since ALL bullies are cowards.